Why Preparation Beats Confidence: An Introvert's Antidote to Imposter Syndrome

Have you ever walked into a high-stakes situation, pitch, keynote, or presentation to senior leadership and heard that faint voice in the back of your head saying, “Who are you to be here?” That’s imposter syndrome. For introverts, that voice can be especially loud, particularly in those moments you need to perform your best. My guest today, Lee Schneider, overcame that voice after spending decades in noisy writer’s rooms pitching projects to Hollywood studio execs. He teaches storytelling at USC today and is a frequent keynote speaker. Lee says the antidote isn’t what we typically think of as confidence. It’s the comfort that we gain and feel in our bodies that comes from thorough preparation. Welcome to “The Introverted Leader.” It’s a podcast helping introverted leaders embrace your underrated quiet strengths so you can get promoted and start earning what you deserve. I’m Greg Weinger. I have over 25 years of leadership experience, and yes, I am an introvert. We’re talking with Lee Schneider today. He’s gonna share his playbook for showing up with quiet authority in the rooms that scare you most. Let’s dig in. All right, Lee, welcome to the show. So glad to have you here today Thanks. It’s great to be here Excellent. Well, I do have to ask you because I ask everyone who joins the podcast, do you consider yourself an introvert, an extrovert, or other? I tend toward other these days, but I have very strong introvert tendencies, and I am nourished when I’m alone. I spend time alone writing a big chunk of the day, and I can be enervated and drained by too much activity and too many people. But at the same time, I’ve learned to be an extrovert in certain situations and like it, and find containers for extroversion. So now I’m kind of a bit of a switch hitter in that way. I can go where I need to go psychologically, but my basic tendency is definitely toward introversion I do wanna ask about, this idea of containers. Could you expand on that? What— How would you create a container for extroversion? Well, let’s say I’m going to a party. If I know no one at the party, that’s a tough container. so that means I have to add some limits to it, like I’ll stay an hour, and if I don’t end up talking to anyone, I’ll… I give myself permission to leave. Or if I’m going to a party where I know everybody, well, I don’t need the container of time. I can just say I’ll leave when I’m ready. if I’m going to an open-ended event like a conference unless I give myself a job, like I’m here to sell a TV show or I’m here to sell a book, that can be difficult. But if I’m there to give a keynote or if I’m there to be on a panel, I have a job and I have a container. So those things help me quite a bit as an introvert Sounds like it’s, a set of rules or a set of expectations that you establish before going into a situation and, sort of an accompanying mindset to that. Exactly. That helped me so much. It helps me quite a lot Yeah. Well, that’s really helpful. I hadn’t heard that before. So Lee, you’ve had a really pretty fascinating career that spanned journalism, film productions, startups, and you teach storytelling at USC. production, you get into, you know, TV plays, it brings you to some pretty intense environments where Mm-hmm. like a writer’s room, like people talking over each other you know? Definitely chaotic environment. Just even like pitching you, you know, going in this super high pressure situation and you really have to be on and super present. So, how did you— how did that resolve itself? Sometimes it didn’t go well, I have to say. You know, sometimes it can be scary. There’s a lot of, shields up. You know, I think of like a Star Trek episode where the shields go up Sometimes there’s this one person. That’s easier, you know, ‘cause you’re having a conversation like we’re having. Sometimes it’s like five people in a comedy series. There was a comedy show I was pitching for, and there were like five very kind of bro, aggressive guys there, and said, “Where are you from?” And I said, “I’m from New York.” And they all started singing, “New York, New York, it’s a hell of a…” And, you know, I was just totally, I didn’t know where to begin really. They kinda threw me off my whole game, that didn’t go well, you know? I mean, in other situations, when you could kinda get into the creative banter of what would this be like, know, there’s a scary moment in pitching where come in with your idea, whatever it is, a startup, a movie, a book, a moment where you have to give a little bit of it to the audience. You have to let them have a piece of it. They have to say, “Well, what if the main character were a girl on a motorcycle?” you’d have to say, “Well, you know, that’s— let’s think about that.” Because you have to invite people into the process and the creative process, and, that could be a generosity which sometimes eluded me and sometimes I understood what necessary there. when it was more of a dialogue and more of a, “Hey, we’re all in here to think of something kind of interesting, cool,” you know, or a documentary, “Let’s see what, what parts would you cover?” And I felt very prepared. You know, a characteristic of introversion is imposter syndrome sometimes, and the antidote is preparation. So if I came into those pitch sessions super prepared knowing everything I needed to know about that story or the people or whatever You know, I had a lot of tricks in the bag. People couldn’t stump me. People couldn’t throw me off like singing “New York, New York,” and that made a big difference. Just that sense of preparation that I belong here. I’ve got the goods. Only I can tell this story. You know, the ways that you position yourself in the room for people, helped me a lot. So it’s an adaptation really. Yeah. So there’s an element of experience, and you’ve done this before, but every situation is new, and so you prepare as much as you can. You can’t possibly prepare for everything, but No You’re a little bit more on even footing. You, especially as an introvert, you know? That’s something heard many people talk about on my show. It’s something that’s been a keystone of how I go into these more chaotic environments. You— I think you start out, like, scripting everything, and then you find out that that’s brittle. Yeah. What other advice would you have, in terms of preparation for big events? It could be a pitch meeting, it could be a presentation, it could be a challenging conversation. Let’s think about a pitch or a presentation or even a keynote. A lot of times we’re in our heads, right? We write out what we’re gonna say. We mutter it to ourselves. We read it under our breath. But we need to open that up a little bit. When I’m preparing something, I must record myself and then listen to myself as I’m walking around outside. Take it out of the context of my— the in between the ears as much as I can. thing is, you have to present it to another human being, your, your spouse, your friend, your coworker. You have to say, “Hey, come in here for a minute. I, I wanna run the first 10 minutes of this and tell me what you think.” Which can be hard, but it gets your eyes away from the paper, trying to read it, which is bad. it gets you into trying to communicate it to another person, and connecting with that other person. Even here on Zoom, learning how to connect with a camera a little bit more than is a real skill, but it comes with practice. I think that that’s the biggest thing. What are all the tricks that you could think about that would get you out of your own head, out from between the ears and into the outward expression of it? when I’m presenting, say, a keynote, I like to sneak into the room before I’m supposed to go on and stand in the place where I’m to stand and give the keynote. Not only is it good to see, oh, where’s the plug, and does the computer go here, and is the screen like that? All that technical stuff, which is excellent to do a tech run-through, which I know from theater, you know, you just do a tech run-through. But just to be in the place and experience the feelings. It’s a very soft target. It’s hard to explain it, but since I’m from California now, I can be touchy-feely, and I can say it’s— these are the unknowns. You know? The unknowns are standing in that space, looking out at the room, imagining the people there, imagining making eye contact with a few people, and getting into the flow. If you need notes, you know, getting into the flow of the notes and the not notes and connecting with people. again tracks back, I think, to imposter syndrome because, you know, supposedly I know what I’m talking about, right? Well, the only way I know what I’m talking about is if I can speak, you know, freely about it, that I don’t need to read it off a piece of paper. Yeah that is the true test of am I really supposed to be here? Can I just speak it, you know? And I find that when you cross that threshold, it’s like an actor learning lines. It’s called being off book. Some actors, just need that script forever, and it’s terrible for the other actors ‘cause their nose is in the script. But other actors, they either have great memories or they embody the character and they become… they live in the space, and they’re off book quickly. It’s kind of like that concept of being off book, trusting in yourself. goes a long way Yeah, and there’s that parallel in a sense to the musicians you were talking about earlier. Can the person sight read and then, quickly go into improvisation? And so yeah, I gave a keynote recently and, there were notes, but I, knew the idea really well. I knew the script really well. But I wanted to get to a point where I was prepared enough so there could be some element of improvisation, and I brought that in and, it was, kind of a key to having audience participation, and there’s some kind of transfer of energy with the audience, Mm-hmm. I personally find that really relaxing and grounding. And as, you know, we’re talking about antidotes to imposter syndrome, if you can get a reaction, I personally love telling jokes and, you know, and Mm-hmm. trying to get that, and then I’m— almost like when I can hear a laugh, then I feel like, “Oh, okay, I’m, I’m okay,” you know? Yeah, exactly. It’s kind of gets into this concept of reading the room. Mm-hmm. You’re not, you know, as a speaker, say, as a public speaker or doing a podcast or anything like that, you’re not just a entity unto yourself. You gotta read the room. some of that is if you tell a joke, do they laugh or not? Or if you, say something that’s important, do you slow down? Do you give a pause? Do you make a moment of that moment, or do you just blow over it because you’re— you don’t trust in it? There’s a habit that… a good habit that playwrights have is the early rehearsal, when you get into watching the play come together, you sit in the back, in the dark, in the back of the house, and you try to be invisible, and you let the actors and the director run the lines and do the scenes, and you just listen. Or in the early performances, when there’s an audience in there, you just listen. Do they laugh at the jokes? When audiences are, fidgeting around and chewing gum and opening candy wrappers, you know you’ve lost them. That’s time to go back to the script and say, “All right, what happened here?” Or listening to an actor stumble over lines. They just can’t get the lines out. It’s usually a writing problem. Mm-hmm. It’s just that something about that section is not embodied, and this notion of embodiment, being there, like you can improv a little, you can riff a little bit, you can ask a question, you can pause. comfort with the material and with yourself, both, and that can be powerful. That works. That’s one of the great joys of doing this, and it’s a great skill to have I love that. And we’re talking about plays, but this is absolutely applicable to any right speaking.I think it’s applicable to… Yeah, it can be on Zoom. It could be in a room. It could be in front of an audience. And, the more comfortable you are with the material and the lines, it allows you to be truly present in the moment and create that connection with the audience Yeah. I mean, look, extroverts are naturally They like the show. They like being in the center of the show sometimes. But as an introvert, you’re not naturally performative. It’s something you have to kind of pump up to do sometimes, or you just have… It’s a dividing line between regular you and the performance you. And there can be a different persona, and I think that’s okay. You know, if you need to become… some people wear funny hats or they have orange glasses or it’s kind of the Elton John approach, like you become a performer. I think that’s okay. Not everyone needs to do that. But there’s a dividing line for us between that kind of outside performative world and the more internal world. I think we have to respect that Yeah, I think that’s a great distinction. That was something that was personally confusing for me for a long time because I was very quiet in a lot of situations, but I love to perform. Mm-hmm. I’m crazy.but I think it’s really a, you know, I later came to understand better, but it’s really what you’re talking about. There is that side, there’s kind of a dividing line, and you do need to key yourself up Mm-hmm. access those parts of yourself. Right. Exactly One more point I wanted to draw out about this is anxiety and performance anxiety, because I think this is probably more universal to all people related to public speaking. But, how do you deal with that? I have to think about that because it manifests in many different ways, right? There’s one performance form of it where I’m gonna forget this whole thing. Like I’m supposed to give a talk or I’m supposed to be on a panel. I’m just gonna forget everything and I’m gonna go blank. I’m gonna come up empty. That’s performance anxiety to me. Standing in the bathroom unable to go out into the room, that’s performance anxiety. There’s a rainbow, there’s different ways of it coming out in you. I think the way to deal with it is for me, number one, to just be comfortable in the space. To do that thing where I show up in the room, I walk around in the room, I talk to some of the people, “Oh, what are you doing here?” “Well, I’m giving the keynote later.” “Oh, cool. What’s it about?” You know, and just kind of normalizing the place. That goes a long, long way to me. Preparation is an antidote to performance anxiety and, and excusing myself for over-preparation, not a problem. Like do… I tell myself, “Do what you need to do. you need to print out the transcript of every talk you’ve ever given or every podcast you’ve ever given, great. You know, do it and then tell ChatGPT or Claude to summarize them and look at my main points.” there are ways that you can reinforce your expertise because the chances are you’re probably pretty good at this. I know I’m pretty good at it and we, as we practice, we have experience, so there’s no reason to discard that experience with the anxiety. That’s, I think, step one is to not say, “Well, I don’t know anything about this. I know nothing.” But that’s not true. So I would say lean in on your experience. You have it. Get used to the space, embody the space, be that person. In extreme cases, there are actors who are very shy they may have anxiety, but they take on a role. In extreme cases, I think taking on a role is okay. Like if, when I’ve been pitching in hostile environments, okay, take on a role of like kind of a story salesman. Like that person is kind of outgoing and easy, easy with a quip and, you know, they don’t need any, bottled water and they don’t need any coffee. Let’s do this thing. You know, it’s kind of like a play a role. I think in an extreme case, that will get you over the bump yeah, I was imagining, it’s kind of like giving yourself a prompt like you’re an AI. Like imagine, Kind of, yeah I wanted to, shift gears a little bit and ask you about storytelling i-itself.you’ve pulled together something called the Storyline Sessions. Could you tell us about that? Well, that came about by thinking systemically about how stories are told. Most people know by now that when you tell a story, people retain it. People are much more likely, when you’re giving a presentation or a talk or meeting someone, to tell a brief story, that involves the other person perhaps. That’s how people remember things, and that’s how we connect with each other because we’re always telling stories. we’re narrative animals. When we see people, we tell a story to ourselves about them, and they’re telling a story about us, and we see if our stories align. We see if our stories connect. So I’ve started thinking about the power of that and how you could apply principles that I’ve learned from playwriting, screenwriting, novel writing into pitching and into presentations and into even websites. that gives you a framework, and that framework you can leverage in so many, so many different types of media. So that’s the basic principle of the Storyline Sessions. Got it. And then how are the instructions for introverts different than for non-introverts? I— t- we’ve covered some of this, you know, in, in our way on our journey here, but I would say learning to, to make a bold statement first helps your audience connect with you. A lot of times we’re told, “Oh, just tell a story. Tell a story about yourself, and that will warm people up to you.” you know, it doesn’t always work because that story has no relationship to the other people. have to think about, okay, what has really moved me about this… Say I’m, say I’m talking about me as a writer. Well, if I think about I originally started writing when I saw the effect my writing had on other people, and there’s a little story I tell about when I was a kid, in, in, high school. I wrote a short story as an assignment, and the teacher read it aloud to the class, and people laughed at the funny parts, and it was the first time that I realized, “Wow! Wait, I could write something that affected people, that made them laugh.” That’s a story that, people may be able to connect with. It’s not entirely about me. Another example I give is the story of, the creation of Nike shoes. Phil Knight really believed, he was the founder, in running. He believed that if the people ran, the world would be healthier, and people would be happier, and the world would be a better place. In business, that’s called an origin story. Many companies have very powerful origin stories. You can think of Apple or HP, founded in a garage. A couple of fellas working on a computer, and then it becomes a global corporation. Nike was also founded in a garage with a waffle iron. The other founder of Nike had got a waffle iron for a wedding present, and instead of making waffles, he took it into the garage and put plastic in it and made the first waffle soles for shoes. that’s an interesting technical innovation, but the idea that running could make for a better world, that’s what really was the point that connected the people. Yeah, I was just thinking about some of the tendencies of introverts that I share. Naturally, I don’t share things about myself. I’m less in the habit of it. And, you know, having a podcast and appearing on podcasts, I’ve had to do that, so I’ve kind of developed some of these stories that I prepare. But I think that’s probably the reason why have these exercises and because, people may be less in the habit. And, you know, I think in some cases, there’s almost an aversion to people who are like, “Let me tell you about myself and this story and that story.” Right know, it’s, it’s very off-putting, I think for many introverts. And so I don’t wanna be anything like that. But Right some of those things are what help connect you to other people. So, maybe be a little bit more like that. That’s a very good point. You know, it’s kind of like that role-playing, move outside a little, try it on. We sometimes we call it around here the Dharma suit. Like try on a different Dharma suit. Try, see what it’s like to… You don’t have to be that guy. You know, you don’t have to be someone you don’t want to be. See if you can try on, a storytelling persona or someone who shares a little bit more about themselves. Podcasts are great labs to learn how to do this because show up and you gotta talk to them, and you gotta find a common ground, and you gotta make a conversation. A real change-making thing for me was when I had an internship in college as a, reporter at the Fort Worth Star-Telegram in Texas, and I would have to go out into a place, and just say, “I’m from the newspaper. Tell me what happened,” to total strangers. But I had a role, you know, there was a container, and the role was the reporter who, was there to ask questions. So sometimes simple like that is just… and that’s why podcasts can work. I’m here to ask questions, so let’s ask, you know, and I’ll listen to your answers. It’s a good role to have Yeah. I’m glad you circled back to the container because I’m applying it now in so many situations. So one example is in a meeting, if you can volunteer to run the meeting because Mm-hmm. that’s a container, that’s— you have an assigned role. You, you need to be— You need to lead the meeting. You need to run it. You might need to moderate, people, keep time, that sort of thing. It’s you’re doing all kinds of things that are maybe not necessarily natural. Another thing when I was younger, I found that I was so much more comfortable at a party when I was the host. Ah, yes. Sure, sure. It’s like, production, if I’m to show up in a place with the crew and I’m directing or I’m producing or I’m there to ask the questions, it’s so much easier. You know, I have a job, you go there, you do this, and I, you know, where’s the person we’re supposed to speak with? so much easier to put yourself in charge, which is a very interesting, technique Interesting. And also, you know, this is a podcast about, the introverted leader and leadership, and leadership puts you in that role. And so, Mm-hmm hey, there’s sort of a natural, support for introverts in moving into leadership as you take on different roles in an organization, like you said. it may be easier than you think Yeah, I agree. That’s wonderful. That’s something I wanna underline that for myself, ‘cause it’s really worked for me so well. You know, if you’re there to photograph the event, you’re the wedding photographer, piece of cake. It’s easy Awesome. I do wanna touch on what you think may be your potential superpowers for introverts in this whole realm of communication Yeah, I would start with urge to prepare, turning performance anxiety or an imposter syndrome to flip that and say, “Well, I just like to get ready. I like to be ready for all eventualities. I wanna practice this thing.” so I would say that the preparation is a superpower. Empathy. You know, since we’re sometimes we can be inside of ourselves, when we can see others more clearly sometimes when we choose to, read the room empathy can be extremely useful when giving a talk, when pitching, when getting a job at a job interview. Reading the room in a job interview is a very valuable thing. And the notion of being internal and being introspective, we tend to consider many aspects of things. We can go deep. We’re not gonna give a superficial talk. You know, I can trust myself that if I’m gonna write something or I’m gonna give a talk, it’s gonna go deep ‘cause that’s the way I think. And we tend to be scenario builders, or at least I am. The what if scenario, and that makes us… It’s a kind of a branch of being prepared. But as a producer, being a television producer, you have to think of everything. What if the crew doesn’t show up? What if the guest doesn’t show up? What if the camera person doesn’t show up? What if there’s no electricity? What if, what if, what if? But that’s a valuable exercise because you’re never stuck. I was out with a correspondent in some place, and they told us, “Oh, we can’t…” You’re out in Kentucky or something, and we need this correspondent to read a voiceover for a piece that’s airing tonight, and we need you to record it right now. And I said, “Well, let’s go to a radio station ‘cause they have recording equipment.” And we literally knocked on the door of a radio station and said, “I have this famous correspondent.” We come in and use your recording studio for a sec?” And they said, “Well, of course.” You know, but it’s that kind of going deep and considering all the possibilities. I would add those to the superpowers Nice. And one thing I think everybody fears, that’s behind all this preparation is what if you get up there and your mind goes blank? Of all, what’s very interesting about giving talks is that only you know if you missed something. The audience never knows if you forgot to say something. You have a script, say, and it’s going A, B, C, D, E, and if you forget E, only you know that. And I’ve found more often than not that if I forget something, I actually roll it in later. I just tell it in a different order maybe, and usually to no ill effect. So most of the time, this forgetting thing, one’s gonna know, and you usually remember anyway in a different order. But memorization is a fascinating process, and a couple of tools that I use are I try to get off the piece of paper as soon as possible. If you’re glued to a piece of paper, it’s gonna be very tempting to go and look at that piece of paper, and then you could mix up your index cards, or you could flip the paper in the wrong way, and then you are stuck because you’re stuck on the paper. So that kind of what you were talking about earlier, comfort in improvisation, comfort in the material that, know, if I memorize the big signposts here, I know how to get from signpost to signpost. and sometimes I will do that on index cards. I will just write the first line of the section and then I can go for the rest. And if it’s not— If I don’t have every single line in that, so what? You know, I’ll come around to it later. But if I just have numbered index cards so I don’t get them out of order and just the first line of every section, that usually works for me. There’s an old, I believe it’s Greek or Roman technique where when they were memorizing talks, they would walk in a garden and associate an idea with that tree and that bush, and then you replay that walk in your mind as you give the talk. And I’ve totally done that, and it totally works. You can, like, walk around your house and associate a idea with each, you know, kitchen cabinet or light, and as you play back that visual memory, that works also. Excellent. So it’s not just Roman gardens that work, it’s transferable to any geography Some of it is recognizing in yourself, are you a visual person? You know, do you need visual cues? The answer for me is sure. I mean, I teach a class for USC, and I’ve taught that class for 10 years. I still sometimes drop lines or drop… ‘Cause I’m riffing and improvising or the students ask a question. I found if I print out the deck with the pictures of the deck and I know the next deck card coming, I have context. I don’t feel like I’m an island, you know, deck card per card per card, which is difficult. Yeah if I have that piece of paper that has all the pictures of the deck, then I’m fine, and then I feel I don’t drop any parts and I don’t have to read it. And after 10 years, you’d think I would remember every word, but it’s not like that Yeah. Oh, you gotta leave, space for fresh things to come in Exactly. Yeah Lee, this has been great. If you had one more bit of advice to give to aspiring introverted leaders, what would it be? I think it’s this that, the brain is not something that, you know, your body’s not a paper bag that you carry the brain around in. The brain and the body are working together here. And to respect what your body needs, which may be comfort in a space. It may be getting used to the sound of your own voice. It may be recording your voice and listening back and saying, “Hey, that sounds good.” Meaning physical comfort goes a long way, and comfort with the human form in a space, those very concrete, real things a lot. That’s helped me a lot. You know, I’m a yoga practitioner. My wife is a former yoga teacher and yoga practitioner. Being in the body makes a big difference Absolutely. I totally agree with all of that. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. you know, If people wanna learn more about you and your work, where should they go? My website is redcupagency.com, like a red cup, Red Cup Agency. And there’s, some pages there about the storyline sessions. You’ll see some menu items. And I do, consultations and Zooms with introverted leaders, like to work on your talk or to work on something if you have a specific project. I love projects. So, next week I’m doing a 90-minute. Someone’s launching a new video blog and, to support people in specific projects is something I really enjoy doing, and I’m good at it. So redcupagency.com is the place to go Absolutely. Check him out. so much for being on the show today, Lee Thanks so much. It was a pleasure What a great conversation. I have three things I want you to take away from this for your next high-pressure situation. Number one, preparation is the antidote to imposter syndrome. Not confidence, not some false charisma, but preparation. Over-prepare. as Lee says, go off book. You embody the material so much that you can be present in the room instead of reading to it. that’s where executive presence really comes from. Number two, build containers where you can assign more outgoing roles for yourself. give yourself a job, a time limit, whatever it is. If you’re at the party, host it. If you’re in the meeting, run it. If you’re in a conference, give the keynote. The container gives you permission to do things outside of your normal comfort zone. It feels easier than you might expect. And number three, connect through genuine story. Open with a bold statement and let your authenticity carry you through. as introverts, we’re already introspective. We’re willing to go deep where other people are not. That’s interesting. That’s powerful. That’s your raw material. You just have to be willing to share a little bit more of it. If this episode resonated with you, the easiest thing you can do now is subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. It’s how more introverted leaders will find this material and engage with it, and we need more quiet, strong leaders. I’m Greg Weinger. Keep leading with quiet confidence, and I’ll see you next time